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 Libertarian Ocean Colonies

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Flash



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PostSubject: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   27.06.08 22:47

Very interesting article:

http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/news/2008/05/seasteading?currentPage=all

That seems like a weird idea. I guess if you hate your ocean neighborhood then you row to the next.
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   28.06.08 5:36

Sounds a lot like that Deep Angel thing. Supercavitating submarines and all that.
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Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   29.06.08 23:48

Mmm, supercavitation... *drools*

Seriously though, here is a prime example of the inherent attractiveness and investability of an independent 'clean-slate city-state' (as these 'seastead bases' would be). Although I have to admit; this particular flavor does sound a bit whack...

Thanks for the link, Flash. It's good to see you back :-)
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   30.06.08 4:35

I suspect they might turn out to be some what less self-sufficient than alot of what is discussed here though.
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Redsand11j



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   01.07.08 15:41

well yeah, they have more or less no available resources.
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Flash



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   02.07.08 20:40

Mike wrote:
Mmm, supercavitation... *drools*

Seriously though, here is a prime example of the inherent attractiveness and investability of an independent 'clean-slate city-state' (as these 'seastead bases' would be). Although I have to admit; this particular flavor does sound a bit whack...

Thanks for the link, Flash. It's good to see you back :-)

I'm happy to finallly be back.

I don't know how sea-citys could ever be built. This idea seems to be the first one.
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   06.07.08 17:34

Simple, start with a sea village and go from there. Design a simple base unit that you can construct for say $1 million, make it infinitely conectable like lego, find a nice attractive site for a sea village, nice weather, handy location, and then open source the designs. Then prey for like minded people, or develope a good business model, which ever you find easier. Off shore servers are popular, but power generation, tourism and aquaculture could also be good.
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NoMoreLies



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   11.07.08 14:58

Hmmm, I wonder how much of someones diet could be from the sea,

How much starch is there in Seaweed?
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Redsand11j



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   11.07.08 18:18

you could just have a yeast tank.
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   12.07.08 4:29

Just an extra thought here, but they would be a perfect form factor for a mass produced offshore nuclear power plant. With the reactor below the surface it would be impervious to earthquake, plane attack, and if it was over deep enough water anything that ever did happen would just sink it to the ocean bottom. But mainly you could manufacture them on a production line and then just tows them to the site. Faster, cheaper, better.
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Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   19.09.08 7:26

Interesting youtube video about a 'superharbor' proposal for Denmark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXcM-0IXsdc

(not really related, but what the hey...)
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   19.09.08 13:25

lkm wrote:
Just an extra thought here, but they would be a perfect form factor for a mass produced offshore nuclear power plant. With the reactor below the surface it would be impervious to earthquake, plane attack, and if it was over deep enough water anything that ever did happen would just sink it to the ocean bottom. But mainly you could manufacture them on a production line and then just tows them to the site. Faster, cheaper, better.

I'm afraid I still consider nuclear power too risky to be used in this manner. I'm sure the UK has an excellent nuclear safety agency, but I have less confidence in the US NRC.
Another power generation idea I just came up with was this. Holland has several off shore wind turbines and I was thinking that instead of just setting up wind turbines, on the same structure you could also put tidal turbines, and on top of that you could attach floating wind turbines to that same structure. Three times the power out of the same structure.
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Locksley



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   19.09.08 13:48

Haven't seen you around for a while Mike!

One of the greatest advantages of nuclear energy is it takes up a fraction of the space a wind or solar farm would take up to produce the same amount of energy. Land is finite...
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   19.09.08 17:40

What's the worst that could happen?
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   19.09.08 22:07

I like Mike's YouTube idea. This would be a great feature to incorporate into a clean slate city-state.
In a city-state with a finite land area, operating as an independent entity, yes, nuclear power is the best option. If the city-state has some coastline then there is a high potential for at least supplementing the nuclear power with wind. One consideration though. Where are we going to put the expended fuel rods?
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   20.09.08 0:10

Going back to the beginning of this thread the one factor that I saw with this concept as well as the Freedom floatong city concept is being out international waters you lose the protection of a country's military. This idea has received a lot of favorable attention from wealthy prospects seeking to avoid paying taxes. There is a problem in the world right now with modern day piracy and this would be a ripe target. As the leader of a country, I would not be so willing to help this type of colony since they are not contributing to the welfare of my country. There is also the need for rescue in natural disasters like earthquakes and tsunami's.
If a distress call was sent to my country, I would at least be tempted to say something like "You wanted to be independent, fine. Here's your chance to discover that independence is a double-edged sword."
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   20.09.08 2:57

I think you may find yourself on the wrong side of international law for doing so. Rules of the sea, and so forth.
If the city is actually far out enough to be in international waters then those waters almost by definition would be deep enough such that any earthquake and tsunami would be barely felt.
Pirates are a clear threat though in certain parts, but then the city itself would be good base for either them or those trying to catch them, so really you just have to see it as an oppportunity.
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   20.09.08 22:28

I said TEMPTED Smile
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   27.09.08 13:03

Did you hear what the Puntland pirates have seized now? 33 T-72 tanks on their way to Kenya. You couldn't make it up.
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   28.09.08 13:15

Couldn't ask for better timing to demonstrate my point! Wink
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Commodore



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   28.09.08 13:40

Just as nations and persons are primarily responsible for their own defense, so are floating cities.

If you ask me, one of the more satisfying features of owning a private yacht would be looking through a spotting scope at the now pale faces of would be pirates in a fiberglass bass boat expecting booty who instead are now looking down the barrel of a pop up bow mounted 155mm cannon.
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   28.09.08 13:57

So essentially they would be paying the equivalent of taxes to support their own defense. Kinda defeats the purpose of having an independent "tax free" floating city-state. Something the wealthy always seem to conveniently forget, freedom ain't free.
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Commodore



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   28.09.08 16:05

Well, by definition, a libertarian colony is somewhat contradictory. Anytime you put more than one person in a confined space, you instantly fall short of the kind of absolute liberty libertarians seek.

Unless you have your own ship equipped with the mechanisms to provide the staples of life, you'll eventually have to submit to someone else. And even then, spare parts.

But if you have a central hub with all the commercial and industrial needs governed by the ideology of your choice that you anchor your houseboat next to, there's no reason it couldn't work.

I would think that the Hub would require the private craft to be armed.
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   29.09.08 12:50

If you are going to have this kind of colony the allowing them to defend themselves is fine by me, but as I said the money has to come from somewhere, and whatever you want to call it that funding is the equivalent of taxes.
As for the entire concept as, as I expressed earlier, I have serious misgivings about how long it would be before a few egomaniacs would turn it into a tyranny. You would think something as benign as a homeowner's association would be free from this type of problem, but I can speak from first hand experience that this can easily happen.
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NoMoreLies



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   11.10.08 6:15

Libertarian Sky Colonies? Anchor your private SkySailor up to it?
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   12.10.08 0:43

Lemme guess, Tobias, "SkyCaptain and the World of Tomorrow" was one of your favorite movies, Right?!?! I agree it was pretty cool!! Honestly I watch a lot of these Sci Fi movies that show an alternate, and more hopeful future and they make me drool! The little "what ifs" like where would airships be today if the Hindenburg hadn't blown up? Having some kind of floating colony would be very cool. Travelling around the world on air currents the scenery would be incredible. Sign me up!!
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   12.10.08 6:05

Have we not already discussed this? I seem to remember suggesting a snowflake structure studed with gherkin llke towers filled with hydrogen and covered in solar cells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_St_Mary_Axe
The city would have giant ducted fans between the arms and towers either to move the city or generate power. People would live and work along the hulls and branches. Or something like that.
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NoMoreLies



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   12.10.08 6:25

No, I haven't even seen it.
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   12.10.08 8:18

For the life of me I can't find it either. I don't even remember which thread it was in, I just remember calculating gas volumes in my head to determine how many towers you'd need. The basis of the plan was constructing something similar to Stargate Atlantis, a floating /flying city with a central spine and hub surrounded by spokes. I reconed, I think, that twenty 500m by 50m towers would provide enough lift for a a city with a 2 kilometre diameter.
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NoMoreLies



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   12.10.08 10:20

It depends how heavy the city is.
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   12.10.08 17:30

You might be able to lighten the city by building it on a giant bouyant cushion, looking kind of like a hemisphere with the flat side up.
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   12.10.08 18:03

Well you do want a very low center of gravity, you don't want anychane of the thing flipping over. That would be bad. Very bad.
Lift wise, a ball park of 40,000mt per tower with twenty towers gives 800,000 metric tonnes of lift. If you say eight spokes with a 1km radius and 50m by 50m with a central tower then you get an average density of 20 kg/m3. Which is probably very much on the low side, maybe lots of carbon fibre. Perhaps aim for 1 million mt and less city.
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   12.10.08 18:20

If the design was like the Stargate Atlantis layout the having a balloon attached to the central spire should give it the stability needed.
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NoMoreLies



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   18.10.08 4:54

Actually, I was thinking more like it being built on a Lighter than Air base, with a sort of Donut shaped balloon above it to stabilise it.
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   18.10.08 13:38

More realistically I think there needs to be a more modular connectable structure akin to the ocean cities. Perhaps rods and spheres.
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   20.10.08 0:00

Perhaps a donut shape on the bottom as well as on top. If I'm not mistaken this would maximize both lift and stability. In fact if the city were donut shaped itself, the "hole" could be a docking port.
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lkm



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   22.10.08 9:16

The bagel city, the city is the filling, the bagel the gas bags. Is that what you meant?
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davamanra



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   23.10.08 3:04

More like two bagels, the city resting on top of the bottom bagel and the top bagel supplementing the bouyancy and stability of the bottom bagel.
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NoMoreLies



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   24.12.08 13:42

Quote :
As for the entire concept as, as I expressed earlier, I have serious misgivings about how long it would be before a few egomaniacs would turn it into a tyranny.

That's why I'd suggest having one central organization whose purpose is to ensure that the rights of the people are being respected. The ideology itself would be quite libertarian, basically the right to leave your micronation, an act facilitated by the organization. It would have other roles as well, such as to make sure that people under the age of majority are being looked after.

The resources aren't much of a problem. As people who have read the right part of 'a cost estimate for colonization' on NewMars will know, there are plenty of resources on and under the oceans. Black smokers contain higher concentrations of ores and metals than land based mines can get. Plus there's plenty of water, sunlight, and air.

Similar situation with a Sky based city, except it doesn't have the ores.
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Flash



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   22.07.09 17:11

Living out on the Ocean for more than a month straight-- I think would get anyone seasick. I couldn't imagine living permanently on an ocean.. This was a dumb idea. Haha.
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Locksley



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   12.08.09 23:20

http://seasteading.org/additionalreading/more

Please look down toward middle at the link entitled HOMESTEAD.

A fairly practical design is given for a floating ocean habitat. This would be a very interesting project to help get the word out about independent ocean colonies, not to mention a blast!

In addition, the recommended location is New Zealand. Very Happy
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NoMoreLies



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   13.08.09 5:31

Plus it makes a Federal Nightwatchmen state easier to implement, since we won't be land limited. Just a security force that ensures peoples rights are being respected.
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Redsand11j



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   13.08.09 16:52

Perhaps it won't be limited in terms of land, but when you're talking about costs likely in the millions of dollars per acre, not to mention the limits on both total weight, and weight in any one area, it does become rather a lot less promising of a solution.
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Locksley



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   13.08.09 21:20

The high costs translate into near total autonomy and sovereignty. Something you can't get on land.

You pay for what you get.
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Redsand11j



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   14.08.09 15:23

you can get that on an island- Vanatinai is, I believe, the current reference location. It would in all likelihood be many, many times cheaper, and would allow high autonomy without the high costs.
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Locksley



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   14.08.09 20:16

No, you would be completely subject to the government who owns the island. Unless you could somehow negotiate a sale. Good luck.
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Redsand11j



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   15.08.09 9:23

That's where we come in- we make it a good government. Or better, we make no government and a good people.

Besides, it doesn't make sense to build land just for your own house. It is much more effective to make developments with 100 houses or more. Say each house get's 1/4 of an acre (1 acre= ~4000 m^2). Assuming a realistic cost of say 15 million dollars per acre, that translates into 375 million dollars. Then at say $200,000 to build each house, that's about 400 million dollars. That means each house, and a modest one at that, would have to be sold for greater than 4 million apiece. Or in a Universal Utilitarian society, you put the equivalent of 4 million dollars worth of resources into a house that is worth the equivalent of 500,000 dollars. Well, something like that. I guess a UUist would just say it is a tremendous waste of time and resources that could be much better spent if we just acquire the land and then use it.

The point of CS is, after all steady state self-sufficiency and stability.
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Locksley



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   15.08.09 21:46

No, you missed my point.

There is no unclaimed land on this planet (save Antarctica). Therefore, the only way to get land to start your own country would be to invade, or purchase is it and negotiate a secession.
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Redsand11j



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   16.08.09 8:56

And is that totally unfeasible? There are a lot of countries that need money more than they need land.
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NoMoreLies



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PostSubject: Re: Libertarian Ocean Colonies   16.08.09 13:30

Having a static amount of land has one fatal flaw: it's like a monopoly game with people entering the game after all the properties been sold off - they've very little chance of winning, or even surviving.
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